Muscle relaxers

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Muscle relaxers

Postby fire-cracker » 24 May 2010, 19:20

Ok....I am so tired of the nagging aching soreness my butt has been having for the past few days. I am going to call my PCP to see if he will prescribe me some type of a very mild muscle relaxer. I would rather call my PCP instead of my CRS because the CRS just wants to jump into surgery too fast instead of offering any other options. I am looking for something very mild since 1 Tylenol PM kicks me on my butt I can only imagine what a muscle relaxer would do to me.
Is there any type of a very mild muscle relaxer that anyone has used? If so...did it help in anyway???
Thanks
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby NeuropathicGuy » 24 May 2010, 23:06

Valium is one that's sometimes used and has helped some of us here. I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but if you do get Valium, just don't use any more than you need or for any longer than you need because it's addictive and very hard to get off of once you're addicted. But if it gets you out of the throes of fissure hell, then it's definitely worth trying IMO.
Some other popular muscle relaxers include Flexeril, baclofen, and soma, but I don't think those are used very often for butt problems, if ever. To be honest I'm not convinced that Valium is that widely used, either. It has a bit of a bad rep from when it first came out many years ago and was handed out like candy, causing lots of people to get unknowingly addicted, so some physicians are reluctant to write prescriptions for it. It's also primarily thought of as a skeletal rather than smooth muscle relaxer, and your internal sphincter is smooth (involuntary) muscle. But for whatever reason, it helped me and some others here, so screw what the doctor thinks if it works right :)
The funny thing is that some doctors will avoid Valium like the plague but will happily write prescriptions for other benzodiazepines. If you get one of these docs, it may not be a bad idea to see if he's willing to let you try some other benzodiazepine instead. They all bind to the same receptors and all have antispasmodic, anti-anxiety, hypnotic, tranquilizing, sedative, etc. effects, the difference is in how strongly they bind, how long they act, and whether they create any active compounds when metabolized, which is what determines the therapeutic profile of each one. For example my son takes another benzodiazepine, Klonopin, for his brain-damaged induced chronic muscle spasms (he also takes baclofen for muscle spasms but that's another story entirely). I've taken Klonopin myself and it does produce muscle relaxation, but requires a higher dose than Valium to achieve it (and it makes my memory terrible). For some reason Klonopin is real popular these days with docs though. Anyway, without rambling too much more, point is, if your doc has a "Valium allergy" you might try seeing what's similar that he isn't allergic to.
You can get Valium is 2 mg tablets (which is a very low dose) or in liquid form (so you can make the dose as small as you want). It'll probably make you sleepy at first but you get used to it quickly. Tylenol PM is just tylenol with a low dose of benadryl so I dunno if you can assume much about your response to a benzo from that alone -- I'm sure you'll be just fine :)
So after that unexpectedly huge post, I guess my summary is: yes, Valium did help me, it's pretty mild and comes in very small tablets, just don't take it too much or for too long. Good luck!
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby Fissulyna » 25 May 2010, 00:33

Nope LOL , not all "zapens" have same effect ! They attach to different receptors in the brain and nervous system and have different effect on different processes. Clonazepam , for example, lowers the no. of nervous signals sent from the receptor toward the brain - so total amount of the pain signals is lowered and pain management is achieved. That is why Clonazepam is used to treat neurophaty problems, for example. It lowers amount of "wrong" signals sent from injured pain toward the brain. Of course, side effect is lowered amount of nerve impulses in general which makes it have very unpleasant side effects , like enormous drowsiness etc.
Valium, on the other side is just general "relaxant" - relaxes muscles and alllll of them - striated and smooth ones also. It makes one feel calm and in small doses is not causing drowsiness at all. Does not generally help with pain management unless pain is caused by muscle problems or helps for palliative care - just to relax anxiety of a person in pain.
Valium is very readily prescribed by CRSs for fissures , all of mine CRSs suggested it Image . I treid it during my acute phase during my first fissure - had no effect at all since I stayed at minimal dose (which was a half of a pill 3 times a day) . After 7 days of that, I stopped since it did not help- my sphincter was just in crazy spasm and since it was also strong as a giant clam - only scalpel could make it loose again LOL
After the second LIS - I was prescribed Valium since my sphincter was in a shock like I had a Hemorrhoidectomy and in constant spasm - but since it was weakened by a second cut - it readily responded to it Image .
So, it is worth a try - just do not go over a smallest dose that has effect and do not stay on it longer than 3-4 weeks. If you need to be longer on it - go off it slowly- half a pill less every week and you will have no problem. Actually , since I used Valium only for a week or two I never had any addiction at all in any shape or form.
You really need to find another CRS lmao - I know I am boring with this suggestion - but you need one that will work WITH you and give you options !
Best of luck Image
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby NeuropathicGuy » 25 May 2010, 01:28

I actually asked your CRS about Valium Fissy and he said nope he doesn't use it. I must look like a drug seeker or something :) SF CRS was cool with it though.
I have to disagree about the action of benzos though... At the end of the day, they all bind to GABA receptors and enhance the action of GABA, which is how addiction forms (because the brain then adjusts to produce less GABA). There are some subtle differences between the various benzos, but they primarily center around duration, binding affinity (rather than which receptors they actually bind to), and active metabolites. It's what I was taught in chem/pharm class and given my personal circumstances, I've unfortunately looked into the matter more than I would like :( For instance the chemical structure of diazepam and clonazepam are nearly identical, except clonazepam has a N2O group on it which changes its profile (but not binding site) a bit -- makes it metabolize quicker and more completely (without active metabolites like diazepam produces), increases the risk of side effects, etc. However, since there are so many benzos available, companies need to market each one for a different niche, and hence clonazepam gets marketed more for spasticity and anxiety while diazepam gets marketed more for muscle relaxation. But the inherent difference between them is actually not that great. The other thing to consider is that the smallest clonazepam tablet is 0.5 mg, which is equivalent to about 5 mg of diazepam, thus it cannot be taken in small doses like diazepam can, thus leading people to believe that it's stronger or acts differently when in fact a lot of it can be attributed to dose, rate of metabolism, etc. Anyhow I guess I'm just being anal here (funny thing to say on this site I guess :))
As for addiction I would honestly have to just say to be very, very careful. Benzos are one of the most common drugs for people to get addicted to, and it's a very individual thing. Some people can take them for months without problems and others can have major problems after just a few weeks. I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened to me personally. I'm on a couple of benzo support forums and you wouldn't believe the number of people who have had problems after just a few weeks. I took diazepam for 5 weeks at a much lower dose than my CRS even prescribed and ended up not being able to stop. Just do a google search for "benzodiazepine withdrawal" or "benzodiazepine addiction" and you'll find a ton of people with stories just like mine. According to doctors that don't specialize in drug addiction, it's not possible to get addicted after that short a span of time, but once you talk to people who focus on only addiction, they'll tell you that it's entirely possible.
What really sucks isn't just being addicted either. It's that most doctors -- aside from addiction specialists -- have no idea how to properly taper off these things. They'll tell you to just cut your dose by 25% or 50% every week or two and you'll be fine, but I can personally say that's absolutely not true if you've got a real addiction, meaning a physical and not just psychological dependency. After I took diazepam for 5 weeks, I stopped over the course of a week went into terrible physical withdrawal. I told my CRS about it and she told me that was impossible, but I guarantee you it happened, and I finally realized I wasn't crazy when I stumbled on all the online benzo support forums and talked to a few specialists. It's a lot like an anal fissure -- people don't really know unless they've been there or if that's their field. There's a well known benzo taper protocol called The Ashton Manual which lays out the right way to taper off, and it's a long process. One of the most common emergency room drug-related admissions is actually for people in acute benzo withdrawal who followed uneducated tapering instructions from their doctors.
Anyway, I know this is a huge post and I do have a stick up my ass (another funny thing to say on this site I suppose Image), and I certainly don't mean to freak you out FireCracker or second guess you Fissy, but when it comes to valium and benzos in general, it's pretty personal to me and I just don't want anyone else to follow down the same path unknowingly.
Now would I have taken valium again given the pain I was in during my acute fissure days? Well, hell yes, because the pain was THAT bad, and I would've done anything! But just be extremely careful and know what you could potentially (not guaranteed but possibly) be opening the door to. Once that door's open, I and many other people can attest that it's reeeeallly hard to close, so best to use the valium for when things are real bad, but keep that benzo dependency door closed as much as possible :)
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby dee » 25 May 2010, 02:26

i am one of the believers in valium...pre-lis it was the only thing able to make me function...
pre-lis i would take 4 ibuprofen, 1 tramadol, 1 darvocet, and one vicodin and still be in pain....when i was finally prescribecd valium it would take 2.5-5mg (i cut my pills in half) and 2-4 ibuprofen pills and i was good...
i'm two weeks post-op and, luckily for me, it seems to be healing--or that's all i can assume...i take 2.5 valium in the morning (with my normal everyday stuff--thyroid, antidepressant, and the colace the surgeon prescribed--god bless colace)--and only occasionally need any ibuprofen post bm now...
as far as dependency on valium--i'd rather be dependent on it than in the throes of fissure pain--although when i go talk to my surgeon in a couple weeks for my post op checkup i will be asking if there's something else he would suggest that is less addicting...
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby Fissulyna » 25 May 2010, 14:05

LOL - I have no problem getting Valium from MY CRS - oh boy - it now blows my mind LMAO - whom did you actually saw LOL - or maybe I just had a "special treatment" Image LOL
ANYHOW - I had a chance to use both Clonazepam and Valium and they had completely different effect on me Image !!! Clonazepam can be used in smaller doses - one can take a half or a 1/4 of a pill !!! Clonazepam never made me feel relaxed - just sleepy - Velium never made me sleepy - just relaxed : ))) - so it could be that it also depends of a particular person - how his/her body is metabolizing certain medication . Also - although the attach to the same receptors (and they should to have affect to a nervous system) - it does not mean they have the same effect Image . It depends of how long they are attached, how much they actually block production and with what rate. That one N2O group can very well make a difference since it can be activator of some enzyme in the proximity or what not - meds DO act differently - even in the same group. Same as with hormones - most BC pills have some kind of progestgenic hormone - but oh boy - do they act differently !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some Benzos are more addictive than others - that is proven in studies and so, they are inherently different in action Image
I never had problem getting off any of them Image - although I never used Valium for a long time :roll:
I take Clonazepam for my neurophaty and it helps tremendously. I started with 1.5 mg a day and went to 0.5 a day -and some days 0.25 (half of a pill) and have no burning pain.
As Dee said - If that means I will take it for life - so be it Image LOL
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby NeuropathicGuy » 25 May 2010, 14:11

I can't argue with that last bit, I'd smoke CRACK for life if it meant no butt pain and no nerve pain Image
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby Fissulyna » 25 May 2010, 14:14

Hey dude - LMAO - count me in Image - although I would stick with "herbal remedies" since I am into herbal medicine anyways Image
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby NeuropathicGuy » 25 May 2010, 14:16

And yep, agreed, benzos do differ in addictiveness, and to be completely fair Valium is one of the less addictive ones. It's because of its long half life. It produces three active metabolites which kick around in your system with a half life of up to 200 hours. Unlike alprazolam which has a half life of only a few hours and clonazepam which is 30-50 hours. In fact the Ashton Manual switches all benzo addicts over to Valium or Librium for the final steps of the tapering process because the long half life of those two makes withdrawal easier. So despite my doomsday fears, Valium is indeed one of the less addictive ones out there. Like I said, if smoking crack, taking valium, or standing on my head and counting backwards from 1000 could cure butt and nerve pain, I'd gladly do it all :)
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Re: Muscle relaxers

Postby NeuropathicGuy » 25 May 2010, 14:18

Fissulyna wrote:Hey dude - LMAO - count me in Image - although I would stick with "herbal remedies" since I am into herbal medicine anyways Image

lol in a few months in California there might be lots of people that are into herbal remedies haha :) But yeah, definitely better herbal remedies than crack!
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